The game should have enough content so people can level at least 4-5 alts through different paths. If it comes to the point where one goes through the same content again and again, and wants to skip it, something is wrong, either with the player (if he isn't even trying other things) or with the game (not enough content? some content is not as interesting as other, so people tend to crowd in the same zone, along the same exp path?)
In either case, the problem is not solved by adding double exp days; it's a "solution" that makes people happy in the short term and ruins the game in the long term.
If there is a real problem, fix it at its root, don't add gimmicks to cover it.
I don't mind bonus XP weekends, provided the leveling in the game is slow to begin with, and possibly have a cap on the bonus one can earn in a single event. It is a helpful way to get friends leveled up to play together.
It also can be used to nudge players to certain zones that may be neglected for some reason or another.
But I prefer for bonus XP events to be rare and special, or that for special ocassions, such as game anniversary, that players with who have been with the game since a pre-determined date, get an XP potion as a gift/reward for their patronage. This would also limit the amount of XP one could gain, and usage of such potion could be used at the players leisure.
I prefer to not have regularly scheduled events for such things.
Like anything in game or in RL, when done properly, it can be benificial.
Kilsin said:shihiro said: I agree with all of the above. It does encourage a forget the content environment. At the same time, it may become somewhat necessary as the game progresses to help newer players who may just be starting out. Does that mean I want suh an event within a year of the game's release? No. Will I support them later? Maybe.Yeah, we have many options available to help new starters a year or so after the game has launched and when they may struggle to find low-level groups, we can have systems like mentoring, guides programs, special incentives for Veteran players to help the new players etc. all without promoting content skipping via experience boosts :)
Please no mentoring, if leveling is a long and arduous adventure, and the game is vast enough, there should be plenty of room for alts, and leveling an alt with your friends or grouping with new players on it is much better than a mentoring system, this was one of the worst features of EQ2 IMO.
Rallyd said:Kilsin said:shihiro said: I agree with all of the above. It does encourage a forget the content environment. At the same time, it may become somewhat necessary as the game progresses to help newer players who may just be starting out. Does that mean I want suh an event within a year of the game's release? No. Will I support them later? Maybe.Yeah, we have many options available to help new starters a year or so after the game has launched and when they may struggle to find low-level groups, we can have systems like mentoring, guides programs, special incentives for Veteran players to help the new players etc. all without promoting content skipping via experience boosts :)
Please no mentoring, if leveling is a long and arduous adventure, and the game is vast enough, there should be plenty of room for alts, and leveling an alt with your friends or grouping with new players on it is much better than a mentoring system, this was one of the worst features of EQ2 IMO.
Don't hate on mentoring just because EQ 2 got it wrong! :)
If done properly, it can be a very good way to connect higher level players with lower level friends/newbies/early content/dungeons etc. making the world feel much more lived in and populated. There are many players who don't like alts and will just play a main for their entire MMORPG game life, I have several friends like that, so mentoring is an awesome way to allow them to connect and play with lower level players, it just needs to be done properly and reduce stats, buffs, passives and everything else to that level so they can't steamroll content and power level anyone, VG almost got it right towards the end.
Kilsin said:Rallyd said:Kilsin said:shihiro said: I agree with all of the above. It does encourage a forget the content environment. At the same time, it may become somewhat necessary as the game progresses to help newer players who may just be starting out. Does that mean I want suh an event within a year of the game's release? No. Will I support them later? Maybe.Yeah, we have many options available to help new starters a year or so after the game has launched and when they may struggle to find low-level groups, we can have systems like mentoring, guides programs, special incentives for Veteran players to help the new players etc. all without promoting content skipping via experience boosts :)
Please no mentoring, if leveling is a long and arduous adventure, and the game is vast enough, there should be plenty of room for alts, and leveling an alt with your friends or grouping with new players on it is much better than a mentoring system, this was one of the worst features of EQ2 IMO.
Don't hate on mentoring just because EQ 2 got it wrong! :)
If done properly, it can be a very good way to connect higher level players with lower level friends/newbies/early content/dungeons etc. making the world feel much more lived in and populated. There are many players who don't like alts and will just play a main for their entire MMORPG game life, I have several friends like that, so mentoring is an awesome way to allow them to connect and play with lower level players, it just needs to be done properly and reduce stats, buffs, passives and everything else to that level so they can't steamroll content and power level anyone, VG almost got it right towards the end.
I am happy to hear that mentoring is being considered for Pantheon. Like Kilsin said, it is a great way for high level players to play with their lower level friends.
Mentoring was a new concept back then. I was thrilled that I could play the character I wanted to, and still play with my long-time friends at the same time. In other games I would either have to play an alt and keep pace with their characters or wait for them to hit cap (some of them never did). In EQ2 I enjoyed the aspect that I was earning AA, so there was a benefit for me to play low level too. Unfortunately when I mentored I was too overpowered for the instance, so it always felt like a run-through and not playing on level. Is this what you did not like about the EQ2's mentoring system Rallyd? or was there another aspect you did not like? In newer games they have tweaked the scaling much better. In games like FFXIV and SWTOR I do not have that feeling of being overpowered for a dungeon I have been scaled down to.
Zarriya said:In newer games they have tweaked the scaling much better. In games like FFXIV and SWTOR I do not have that feeling of being overpowered for a dungeon I have been scaled down to.
I realize this is off-topic from the OP, but wanted to add my thoughts to a mentoring system.
I've been aganist mentoring in most games due to it feeling gimmicky, overpowered, or inproperly scaled as you suggested; HOWEVER, I believe it could work if it is viewed almost as a "reversed twinking." I realize I've been pushing my idea on scaling gear based off stats/level a lot, but I think it could work with a mentoring system as well.
Example: Level 1 twinked with a Short Sword of Ykesha would be no different than a Level 50 with a Short Sword of Ykesha scaled back to level 1. The Level 50 would adopt the max skill cap of the level 1, and then be restricted by level/skill based damage caps much like a twinked level 1 (modified EQ system).
The only "negative" argument I would see is for experience scaling. If there is a system such as AAs in Pantheon, or even for regular exp if a level 50 (or near maxed level player) was earning average-good exp with little to no challenge as a level 1 character, there would be no reason to obtain AA exp (or regular exp) at their level. I think the larger issue becomes how to control exp scaling. Or, a second option would be just having the mentoring system turn off exp gain altogether, and the system would just allow the higher level character to be able to group with the low level where they could obtain exp. A third option would be obtaining mentoring experience (maybe that would be shared with a leadership experience pool) similar to EQ's leadership exp - offering another form of alternate progression?
Raidan said:Zarriya said:In newer games they have tweaked the scaling much better. In games like FFXIV and SWTOR I do not have that feeling of being overpowered for a dungeon I have been scaled down to.
I realize this is off-topic from the OP, but wanted to add my thoughts to a mentoring system.
I've been aganist mentoring in most games due to it feeling gimmicky, overpowered, or inproperly scaled as you suggested; HOWEVER, I believe it could work if it is viewed almost as a "reversed twinking." I realize I've been pushing my idea on scaling gear based off stats/level a lot, but I think it could work with a mentoring system as well.
Example: Level 1 twinked with a Short Sword of Ykesha would be no different than a Level 50 with a Short Sword of Ykesha scaled back to level 1. The Level 50 would adopt the max skill cap of the level 1, and then be restricted by level/skill based damage caps much like a twinked level 1 (modified EQ system).
The only "negative" argument I would see is for experience scaling. If there is a system such as AAs in Pantheon, or even for regular exp if a level 50 (or near maxed level player) was earning average-good exp with little to no challenge as a level 1 character, there would be no reason to obtain AA exp (or regular exp) at their level. I think the larger issue becomes how to control exp scaling. Or, a second option would be just having the mentoring system turn off exp gain altogether, and the system would just allow the higher level character to be able to group with the low level where they could obtain exp. A third option would be obtaining mentoring experience (maybe that would be shared with a leadership experience pool) similar to EQ's leadership exp - offering another form of alternate progression?
I'm staying brief b/c yes we are going OT, but I am in agreement w/ your post. I'll make a new thread :) Continue on w/ Double XP !
Raidan said:Zarriya said:In newer games they have tweaked the scaling much better. In games like FFXIV and SWTOR I do not have that feeling of being overpowered for a dungeon I have been scaled down to.
I realize this is off-topic from the OP, but wanted to add my thoughts to a mentoring system.
I've been aganist mentoring in most games due to it feeling gimmicky, overpowered, or inproperly scaled as you suggested; HOWEVER, I believe it could work if it is viewed almost as a "reversed twinking." I realize I've been pushing my idea on scaling gear based off stats/level a lot, but I think it could work with a mentoring system as well.
Example: Level 1 twinked with a Short Sword of Ykesha would be no different than a Level 50 with a Short Sword of Ykesha scaled back to level 1. The Level 50 would adopt the max skill cap of the level 1, and then be restricted by level/skill based damage caps much like a twinked level 1 (modified EQ system).
The only "negative" argument I would see is for experience scaling. If there is a system such as AAs in Pantheon, or even for regular exp if a level 50 (or near maxed level player) was earning average-good exp with little to no challenge as a level 1 character, there would be no reason to obtain AA exp (or regular exp) at their level. I think the larger issue becomes how to control exp scaling. Or, a second option would be just having the mentoring system turn off exp gain altogether, and the system would just allow the higher level character to be able to group with the low level where they could obtain exp. A third option would be obtaining mentoring experience (maybe that would be shared with a leadership experience pool) similar to EQ's leadership exp - offering another form of alternate progression?
These are the exact reasons why there shouldn't be mentoring.
The process of gaining experience should never be trivialized. Making exp faster (dbl exp weekends) or allowing players to exp while mentored will do both. Exp is usually easier to obtain at lower levels, because content naturally gets a little harder as you get higher level. You can't allow people to grind low level content while in OP mode. Its just too problematic.
The only way a mentoring system should exist is if it scales the crap out of the player and doesn't let them get experience. If you are level 40, you should only be gaining experience from content of your level. Period. The mentored players should never be stronger or have access to higher level abilities than a player of that level.
Finally, if you want to play with someone lower level, make an alt. I don't think becoming magically lower level should be a thing in a virtual world. Those are the kind of gamey mechanics I'm trying to get away from.
Dullahan said:Raidan said:Zarriya said:In newer games they have tweaked the scaling much better. In games like FFXIV and SWTOR I do not have that feeling of being overpowered for a dungeon I have been scaled down to.
I realize this is off-topic from the OP, but wanted to add my thoughts to a mentoring system.
I've been aganist mentoring in most games due to it feeling gimmicky, overpowered, or inproperly scaled as you suggested; HOWEVER, I believe it could work if it is viewed almost as a "reversed twinking." I realize I've been pushing my idea on scaling gear based off stats/level a lot, but I think it could work with a mentoring system as well.
Example: Level 1 twinked with a Short Sword of Ykesha would be no different than a Level 50 with a Short Sword of Ykesha scaled back to level 1. The Level 50 would adopt the max skill cap of the level 1, and then be restricted by level/skill based damage caps much like a twinked level 1 (modified EQ system).
The only "negative" argument I would see is for experience scaling. If there is a system such as AAs in Pantheon, or even for regular exp if a level 50 (or near maxed level player) was earning average-good exp with little to no challenge as a level 1 character, there would be no reason to obtain AA exp (or regular exp) at their level. I think the larger issue becomes how to control exp scaling. Or, a second option would be just having the mentoring system turn off exp gain altogether, and the system would just allow the higher level character to be able to group with the low level where they could obtain exp. A third option would be obtaining mentoring experience (maybe that would be shared with a leadership experience pool) similar to EQ's leadership exp - offering another form of alternate progression?
These are the exact reasons why there shouldn't be mentoring.
The process of gaining experience should never be trivialized. Making exp faster (dbl exp weekends) or allowing players to exp while mentored will do both. Exp is usually easier to obtain at lower levels, because content naturally gets a little harder as you get higher level. You can't allow people to grind low level content while in OP mode. Its just too problematic.
The only way a mentoring system should exist is if it scales the crap out of the player and doesn't let them get experience. If you are level 40, you should only be gaining experience from content of your level. Period. The mentored players should never be stronger or have access to higher level abilities than a player of that level.
Finally, if you want to play with someone lower level, make an alt. I don't think becoming magically lower level should be a thing in a virtual world. Those are the kind of gamey mechanics I'm trying to get away from.
Mentoring is -when done properly- scaled to the level, so a level 40, for example, mentoring down to a level 5, would have all their gear, weapons, buffs, passives and stats completely reduced to suit level 5 content and they would receive level 5 experience for any level 5 content completed or level 5 mobs killed, they would be at no advantage whatsoever as they would be essentially equal to a level 5 player just in a level 40 characters body, usually by appearance only.
Again, this is just an option that I mentioned that was available to us, among others, this is not an official stance or announcement to say that we will be using mentoring or are even considering it, it was just used as an example followed up by an explanation as to why mentoring can be a great way to connect players of different levels to lower level content.
A few games got mentoring horribly wrong and those games suffered because of it in my opinion, but when done right, it can be an important tool in connecting players of all levels and repopulating older/low-level content, saving it from a revamp due to it being unused for the most part when everyone levels past it years down the track.
Forcing players to roll alts just to be able to play with friends and family or newer players is not only taxing/straining on the community but it also makes it difficult to group up with those people unless you are able to grind out levels to catch up, which in Pantheon, will be slow and time-consuming, it isn't community friendly to expect someone to roll a completely new character and level it to 12-15 which could take days, to play with their friend, family member or new player who may be stuck and need help right then and there.
Thinking you can level from say 40-50 on level 5 content while mentored at an exp gain of roughly 3-5 exp per mob, compared to 300-500 per mob at your normal level (40 in this instance) is crazy, it would take a hundred times longer to level and be more of an inconvenience than anything, but it allows you to play with lower level characters and enjoy the content with them without steamrolling it on a higher level character, nothing more.
Again, don't judge it based on one or two games' bad implementation of it or misinformation on how the mechanic actually works, we are not going to implement an easy mode option in our game after everything we have gone through, stated and done (removing an entire store) to then show otherwise! ;)
Very well said Kilsin! I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that mentoring should be so I don't have to log an alt and level an alt right at that moment to be around a friend's level to help out without steamrolling content, and not to gain "easier" levels. Can't wait to see how Pantheon tackles this. Although I don't know how talks on Double EXP lead to talks on mentoring...
Velrak said:Hell levels were just that. I am neither in favor of double exp,rest exp.or exp potions etc.Please no bonus xp/rest xp.
Instead bring back EQ's Hell Levels!!!!!!
Hell levels would be nice option for Pantheon and maybe,just maybe a button to let you skip hell level experiance as long as you have a character that is higher in levels than your alt. But only on the alt
I also am not a fan of one zone having bonus exp- or better exp for a level that other zones of equal level do not have. I think it just adds to the crowd gathering all in one zone to get better exp. I remember in eq that High Keep was better exp than other equal level zones had and people would flock there to get the added exp.
In general I am a fan of things like weekend occurances of not only this, but anything beneficial. From what I've noticed doing things like this brings significant levels of activity to particular content otherwise not as active normally or content that is essentially just going with the flow. Depending on the mentor system you have previously talked about and the benefits of possibly grouping with other people, you could put in more exp rewards to take advantage of such events also.
No I don't like the idea to have double XP weekends or events. The amount of XP earned should not depend on the in game or real life date or time. The only exception I can think of is, that if the monsters are stronger at night, they should reward more XP as the weaker day monsters.
But maybe some other circumstances could give more XP than for normal leveling. I can think of alts who are leveled using the progeny system could maybe get a bonus. Maybe even a rest bonus, when you have not played this character for a long time.But this ways for bonus XP are no must for me and maybe it is better to leave them out of the game?
If it is implemented wise, a mentoring system could be a good thing, but it should not give bonus XP, just adjust the level/power of the players, that they can play together in a meaningful way.
I am for SPECIFIC xp events that serve a purpose. Does the dev team think a certain dungeon/ area needs more player love? Give a bonus to that area for a weekend (test it) and see what the response is. Maybe that area should get a permanent (slight) xp bonus. Want large turnout for GM/ Guide events - offer bonus xp for attendance (does not have to be limited to adventuring xp... how about faction, crafting, etc.).
XP bonus weekends on all content I am against. Serves no real (long lasting) purpose.
I am 100% against exp bonuses of any kind. This is one of those non-negotiable, never should have been in games anyway type of things...unless of course you are talking about crafting or diplomacy exp in which case I fully support it and would suggest 10x exp weekends!
8-)
From what I've seen in the past, bonus xp has always been for three reasons. One is to get people who are current subscribers to put more time in (or put some time in if they haven't played in a while), two is to get people to re-subscribe for a short while to maybe get them hooked again, and three is to try to get new subscribers. All of these can be handled in better ways, because as has been said by others, bonus xp is just a way to skip content.
I like the idea of possibly just holding more events on some special weekends, these usually work good at solving these issues as well, and can add to the content and lore of the game. GM run events can be extremely fun and memorable. They can also be scripted events that only happen for that weekend, week, or whatever. Also, these events should have special rewards; they don't have to be super great items or anything, but they should help with the memory of the event. Maybe a trophy to place in your house (when housing is available), or a skin for a shield or piece of armor or weapon, or a title.
